tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1187572289151836731.post4611081258376455283..comments2023-05-12T11:24:30.091-04:00Comments on The Imaginary Philosophy: How Religion Insults Us and We Don't Even Know ItTom Stelenehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13460571529579448952noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1187572289151836731.post-76020732134441247012009-02-09T13:06:00.000-05:002009-02-09T13:06:00.000-05:00Excellent point. Many religious people are just pa...Excellent point. Many religious people are just parasites on other minds.Tom Stelenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13460571529579448952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1187572289151836731.post-87861883223434180762009-02-09T12:53:00.000-05:002009-02-09T12:53:00.000-05:00You know, if you disagree with your parents' belie...You know, if you disagree with your parents' beliefs, even if you can prove they are wrong, it's kind of hard to leave. Especially when every other grown-up you know agrees with them. The religious are trying to hang on to you long enough that you will stick around after you are legally free, by force of habit if for no other reason, or out of social pressure. It's kind of like Stockholm Syndrome.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1187572289151836731.post-67818017492663877212009-02-07T15:50:00.000-05:002009-02-07T15:50:00.000-05:00Forcing a child to go to Catholic Sunday school ag...Forcing a child to go to Catholic Sunday school against his will is not equivalent to an adult *choosing* to enter an insitution and "going along with the program."<BR/><BR/>My claim that I was aware I was being indoctrinated is meaningless? It meant a lot to me - if that is okay with you. Who are you to assess my statements about my mental state 30 years ago - especially when you weren't even there? I'm supposed to take your word over my own experience? Well, that's the essence of religion, isn't it?Tom Stelenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13460571529579448952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1187572289151836731.post-55461243702957707672009-02-07T13:33:00.000-05:002009-02-07T13:33:00.000-05:00I know a lot of people who claim to be rational th...I know a lot of people who claim to be rational that Objectivists disagree with. Who is correct? I know many kids that rail about the 'unfairness' of not getting their way. I know lots of people who would never steal anything.<BR/><BR/>That's why there are rules of logic, parents rights to control children, and police. Bluntly, your claim that you were aware is meaningless; adults in the army are indoctrinated; same with, oh, the police or any other similar corporate endeavor.Aquinas Dadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16760282282923079133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1187572289151836731.post-21728623056734178602009-02-06T18:53:00.000-05:002009-02-06T18:53:00.000-05:00Be careful of your assumptions: I very much had my...Be careful of your assumptions: I very much had my own principles but knew I had more to learn about how to form them, and to learn more of them. I wanted to know how to. That is why I resented indoctrination. I could recognize it as "indoctrination" (though I did not know it by that word) in the first place, so what does that say about a kid's ability to understand a) that one must have principles; and b) that there is a right and wrong way to form them? If I could think like that at that age, so could other kids. <BR/><BR/>How can that mental paradigm be the longest held when Oriental religions and philosophy pre-date it by a few thousand years? I don't believe Catholicism because it is false. I think much of what the church does and teaches is immoral and even reprehensible. That's why I'm fortunate my Catholic indoctrination failed.Tom Stelenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13460571529579448952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1187572289151836731.post-3476795302027815732009-02-06T12:06:00.000-05:002009-02-06T12:06:00.000-05:00OK, fine. They weren't trying to let you form your...OK, fine. They weren't trying to let you form your own beliefs and principles. No more than the Athenians or the Hippies did with their kids. See, kids are incapable of forming their own beliefs and principles. <BR/><BR/>And why is the avoidance of Catholicism 'fortunate'? It is arguably the most successful mental paradigm in human history. It is easily the longest single corporate human concept to ever have existed.Deep Thoughthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17438539845962372105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1187572289151836731.post-43413729821795863262009-02-06T11:32:00.000-05:002009-02-06T11:32:00.000-05:00Okay, maybe the term 'brainwash' was a bit hyperbo...Okay, maybe the term 'brainwash' was a bit hyperbolic. It was Catholic indoctrination I was sent to. That's not the same thing thing as getting to learn how to do something. They were not about teaching me how to think and how to learn so I can form my own beliefs and principles. They were indoctrinating me to just accept their (Catholic) beliefs and principles. Ultimately and fortunately, it did not work.Tom Stelenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13460571529579448952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1187572289151836731.post-92046034234055750172009-02-06T09:49:00.000-05:002009-02-06T09:49:00.000-05:00C'mon, be serious. If you want to use the term 'br...C'mon, be serious. If you want to use the term 'brainwash', that is what all education of children really is; the manipulation of emotional responses to ingrain acceptable behavior. From potty training to 'inside voices', that's how you do it. Or are you aware of rational 3 year-olds? Complaining that adults wanted you to unthinkingly emulate examples when you were, say, 10 is akin to complaining about them using an appeal to authority to get you to wipe your own bum! My oldest has a tested IQ of 160-165 and I can reliably expect rationality out of him about 75% of the time now that he is 12.<BR/><BR/>You know, I find the idea of 'kids as a thing to be avoided' very... odd. I do a lot of writing on socialization and demographics (my blogs are lousy with such) and, well - Mark Steyn is a guy I disagree with a lot, but he did say something very clever, once. <BR/><BR/>"The future belongs to those who show up for it"<BR/><BR/>The future of the West looks very Christian because of the, well, refusal of secular types to have many kids and their further refusal to teach them their own ideologies. When I visit my Objectivists friends I see many couple and few children. When I go to my Latin Mass parish I see many couple and many children. Statistically I know that little more than half of the children of Objectivists will be Objectivists themselves while almost 80% of the children of traditional Catholics will be Catholics themselves. Over time this is a huge effect.Deep Thoughthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17438539845962372105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1187572289151836731.post-11031148452060932912009-02-05T18:07:00.000-05:002009-02-05T18:07:00.000-05:00In principle, I agree - I don't agree that Biblica...In principle, I agree - I don't agree that Biblical examples are irrelevant to modern life in Western society. Of any virtue or good trait there are superior examples personified in literature and history than in scripture. The experience I had was not meant to inspire me - it was meant to brainwash me.<BR/><BR/>And I think children should be outlawed ;)Tom Stelenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13460571529579448952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1187572289151836731.post-71492722582849259682009-02-05T09:57:00.000-05:002009-02-05T09:57:00.000-05:00John Galt never existed - why, then, does he have ...John Galt never existed - why, then, does he have an appeal? Ditto for reardon, Dagney, the Count of Monte Christo, and Superman. All totally fictitious. All held up by individuals and groups as exemplars. Why?<BR/> Well, to help us see, by example, what human beings are capable of, naturally. Playing games is preparation for activities that are not recreational. Just as soldiers practice on the rifle range before going into battle, children practice social interactions in games. <BR/> Groups, be they religious or not, use exemplars to demonstrate that yes, the ideas of that group can be lived and that those who live by them are successful. Thus the stories of George Washington being an honest child, whether true are not, give children a safe, remote example of how honesty is preferable to dishonesty in the long term.<BR/> John Galt, etc., were used by Rand to demonstrate, abstractly, what life could be like if one lived as she envisioned. Jeremiah is held up as an example that telling the truth and facing facts is always the best course, even in the face of persecution. Etc.<BR/> Why do we tell children to emulate people we consider great? To demonstrate to them that greatness is possible. To illuminate how moral actions lead to a superior life, and that justice is its own reward, of course.<BR/> The ability of example to transform a young person's view of their own potential in a positive manner is why coming of age tales like Horatio Hornblower are so powerful.<BR/><BR/> Wild guess, here - no kids, right?Deep Thoughthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17438539845962372105noreply@blogger.com